IAA changes for PPG?

Oisin Creagh · Fri May 08, 2009 1:18 am by Oisin Creagh

Good news for trikes and PPC's, and fair play to NMAI for driving progress in this area.

What has changed regarding PPG's... anything new? It sounds like no sign of the promised liscence yet, after being told it was on the way two years ago, but being held up because of 'printing problems'?

Anyone care to share what was on the agenda?

Oisin

ParaDara · Fri May 08, 2009 7:58 am by ParaDara

Hi Oisin,

Yes - have a look at my earlier post entitled "Proposed New IAA Regulations for PPG & PPC". PPGs and PPCs will all be covered by the proposed new 10-hour licence for single-seaters. I have inserted below explanatory text from Kevin Swords (E-Mail 29-Apr-09) and the text of his Discussion Paper (1-May-09). Again I emphasise that in response to my specific query IAA have confirmed that these developments are not confidential and may be released into the public domain.

From: SWORDS Kevin [mailto:Kevin.SWORDS@IAA.ie]
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 1:08 PM
To: Dara Hogan
Cc: STEEL John; CUMMINS Niall; WHITE Simon; QUIRKE Sinead; ONEILL Terry; SKEHAN Brian; CORBETT Jim
Subject: RE: Proposals for Pilot Licensing requirements - FLPAs and Powered Parachute Microlight

Dear Dara,

Thank you for your acknowledgement Email of 27 April 2009 beneath and confirmation of your attendance at the proposed meeting.

I should clarify that, as one of three associations in Ireland representing FLPA’s, your association is being invited to represent its own views at it’s own dedicated consultation meeting with the Authority. The NMAI is, in fact, attending its own meeting with the Authority earlier on the same day and, while it is intended to touch on some FLPA matters at the NMAI meeting, they also have their own agenda items which are specific to microlight aeroplanes.

My proposed discussion paper is very simply based on a suggestion of your own (made at recent microlight safety evening in March, 2009 in Tullamore), i.e. to consider foot-launched powered paraglider and undercarriage/ wheel launched powered parachute microlights as a single category and to introduce a common simplified non-ICAO licence category to cover both variants. Your own views in this area would be very much appreciated to assist me to finalise the discussion paper – perhaps you might consider summarising some of the ideas which you put to me at the microlight evening and sending them to me by return of Email.

Yours sincerely,
Kevin Swords,
Aero Officer,
Flight Crew Licensing Standards Section,
Regulatory Performance & Personnel Licensing Dept.,
29 April 2009

IAA Discussion Paper on possibility of non-ICAO Pilot Licence to cover FLPA’s and Powered Parachute Microlights

1. The category “Foot Launched Powered Aircraft” (FLPA) has 2 classes – Powered Paraglider (PPG) and Powered Hang-Glider (PHG). At present, pilots flying these aircraft types in the State do so under a specific Exemption from Article 5 of the PEL Order (SI No. 333 of 2000). Exemptions are granted on the basis of recognition given to training which has either been completed in Ireland or abroad (UK, France, Spain, Portugal) and which has been documented as having been given under an established syllabus (e.g. BHPGA, BMAA etc.). It has been envisaged for some time that the Exemption system would be converted into a fully developed pilot licence system.

2. The requirements for obtaining a PPL for the Powered Parachute microlight aeroplanes class are sert out in Aeronautical Notice No. P 17, Issue 1 of 23.11.2007 (formerly issued as Aeronautical Notice No.O 45). Broadly, this requires an ICAO Annex 1 compliant 40-hour course with full R/T training. There is significant evidence for believing that Powered Parachute microlight aeroplanes can be safely mastered in a shorter time.

3. Some PPG’s are now using wheels for take-off and /or landing. This effectively puts them out of the FLPA category (because they are no longer foot-launched) and into the Powered Parachute microlight aeroplane category.

4. Accordingly, it is proposed to take Powered Parachute microlight aeroplanes out of the ambit of Aeronautical Notice No. P 17, and to put them into a new Aeronautical Notice which would define a licensing regime for all powered parachute aircraft, whether foot or wheel-launched, and for foot-launched powered hang-glider aircraft.

5. The new A.N. would require substantially reduced training times (maybe around 10 hours for single-seat aircraft and 15 hours for two seat aircraft). There would be no R/T requirements. The privileges of the resulting licence would allow flight in class “G” airspace only, not over any congested areas and only within the State (being a non-ICAO Annex 1 compliant licence).

6. The A.N. would be loosely enough framed so as to facilitate the several different training philosophies existing but sufficiently specific to ensure adequate training standards and safety.

IAA – FCL Standards Section
01 May, 2009. (Version 1.2)

Cheers,

>>> Dara <<<

####################################################################

E-Mail from: Dara Hogan E-Mail: dara.hogan@esatclear.ie
Chairman: Irish Hang Gliding & Paragliding Association
Director / Vice-President: National Aero Club of Ireland

Check out our websites at: www.ihpa.ie and www.aeroclub.ie
Check out my paragliding photos at: www.fotki.com/DaraHogan

6 Highfield Court, Marley Grange, Rathfarnham, Dublin 16, Ireland
Home Telephone: +353-1-493-5038 Mobile: +353-86-258-5978

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Oisin Creagh · Fri May 08, 2009 9:17 pm by Oisin Creagh

Hi Dara,

I understand that this is progress for those interested in trikes, but not sure what it means for PPG? What benefit is the 10 hr rule for PPG?

Oisin

ParaDara · Fri May 08, 2009 10:33 pm by ParaDara

Hi Oisin,

The exemption system for PPGs was a temporary arrangement and, without it, PPGs would have been classified as microlights requiring 40 hours etc. The proposed new 10 hour (minimum) licence for PPGs is a good result and IAA do appear to be responding to the needs of PPGs in a reasonable way i.e. no airworthiness requirements and a 10-hour (minimum) licence (for single-seaters).

Cheers,

>>> Dara <<<

####################################################################

E-Mail from: Dara Hogan E-Mail: dara.hogan@esatclear.ie
Chairman: Irish Hang Gliding & Paragliding Association
Director / Vice-President: National Aero Club of Ireland

Check out our websites at: www.ihpa.ie and www.aeroclub.ie
Check out my paragliding photos at: www.fotki.com/DaraHogan

6 Highfield Court, Marley Grange, Rathfarnham, Dublin 16, Ireland
Home Telephone: +353-1-493-5038 Mobile: +353-86-258-5978

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Oisin Creagh · Sat May 09, 2009 10:15 am by Oisin Creagh

I am still unclear what this means for PPG... 10hr minimum? How is this different from the need for an approved rating, which already required a minimum number of hours?

It seems to me that the NMAI have made a breakthrough for trike flying pilots, or pilots to be, but there is not much change other than this? I understand your interest in the trike issue, and I am sure there are many others who will benefit from the easing of the requirements. I have flown with a few powered parachute NMAI members who will hopefully be able to benefit from this, after many years flying from the long grass!

I am surprised you find the fact that Kevin took your comments at the NMAI meeting on board so unusual?

In my limited experience of dealing with the IAA, they have always been open to, and interested in assisting, and were always prepared to listen to representatives of the sport.
The problem they had and still have, is that they need to talk to three groups one after another, and talk separately to them.

When I last had dealings with them, over a year ago, they were very open to review of the class 2 medicals, options to facilitate overseas pilots coming to fly here, and looking at other countries ratings etc.. nothing was off the agenda as far as I could see other than de-regulation as in UK. I never found anything unreasonable in what they had to say.

I stopped communicating with the IAA after it was suggested by yourself Dara, that it was unhelpful to have too many voices communicating with the IAA, and that there was a feeling that the right people were not being communicated with? Having stayed out of it, I am disappointed that the situation is no better in terms of communication. The fact that the IAA feel the need to communicate with three 'representative' groups individually, is frankly not a great reflection on our sport. This is not intended as a criticism of any one group or any individual, but the rush to claim credit for progress with the IAA is not very pretty. Opening this debate on easing of trike license to the UK forums, will undoubtedly create interest in UK pilots wanting to come to Ireland to get a license, and return to UK claiming an EU approved license. This is something the IAA were already concerned about with PPG’s. I am not sure this will help the situation?

It is still a worry for me and others, that three groups, all well intentioned and with every right to communicate with the IAA, all claim to represent PPG pilots in Ireland. I might be wrong, but I believe the majority of PPG pilots in Ireland North and South, are not members of any of these groups, and are therefore not represented by any of them. I believe most that are not members of any one of the Irish ‘representative’ groups, are not aligned to any one, because of the unfortunate divisive relationships between them.

I would love to see the flying community pull together, and at very least form a representative group to discuss the issues of importance, and seek a collective approach to the IAA on these matters of significance to all? I know efforts were made last year, and I think this should be given another chance to move forward. Maybe I am being a bit naive, hoping we could pull together for the better good, but the current situation is hardly ideal?? I live in hope!

Any suggestions? Any interest?

Yours... ( waiting for better weather!)

Oisin

ParaDara · Sat May 09, 2009 12:41 pm by ParaDara

Hi Oisin,

In the past, lots of sports pilots have complained about Kevin Swords and, in previous years, his interventions in ballooning, parachuting, microlighting and paramotoring all seemed to be intentionally divisive. They did actually result in much dissent and division.

None of this is new and, in previous discussions, I've made Kevin aware of his reputation among sports pilots. Personally, I have only had positive dealings with Kevin but whenever I say that to sports pilots many of them laugh knowingly and caution me to be very careful! However, like you, I have never been disappointed in my dealings with Kevin. Incidentally, Kevin briefed us on structural changes within IAA which mean that we'll all be dealing with John Snow rather than Kevin from now on. John was at Thursday's meeting.

In my view the proposed new licences are hugely progressive for FLPAs. The current exemption system was always an interim arrangement and the earlier IAA Draft Directive on FLPA was very onerous and basically treated FLPA pilots as full microlight PPL pilots. The proposed new licensing system removes that threat and implements a perfectly reasonable 10-hours (minimum) licence. Also, the clarification that PPGs are not subject to any airworthiness regulation is great news. These are major changes for the better and the biggest impact positive will on the 100+ Irish PPGs as there are only a handful of trikes in ROI. However, the light regulation of ultralight trikes will, hopefully, bring more pilots into those classes.

Jason and I raised the Class 2 Medical issue on Thursday and we agreed that NMAI / IHPA will re-submit to the Chief Aeromedical Officer the paper by FAI's Dr Peter Saundby proving that Class 2 medicals are ineffective. The decision here rests entirely with Dr Annetje Roodenburg but IAA do seem to be hung up on Class 2 and I don't really see that changing. Sadly, the Class 2 issue is one of the most significant barriers to UK and EU pilots coming over to fly with us.

IAA didn't mention any concern about UK pilots coming to Ireland to get a licence. The Class 2 requirement probably means that's not an economic option anyway.

IAA do not need to deal with three associations. They chose to have separate consultations with NMAI, IHPA and the Midlands guys. NMAI and IHPA would have been quite happy to attend one joint meeting with IAA. Indeed IHPA and the Midlands guys attended a joint IAA consultation in 2006 or 2007. Note that our response to IAA will be a joint NMAI / IHPA response.

With regard to unity in PPG I'm still pessimistic. There is full unity within NACI and in the last 2 years NACI have initiated three, separate attempts to unify paramotoring without success. This included a professional mediator - Hugh Governey of JSI. NACI can't really see why there is any hope that a fourth attempt would succeed? There is an obvious solution to the unity issue and I know that I sound like a broken record on this one! I would strongly urge all PPGs to join either NMAI or IHPA and I was delighted to see Gordon and some others joining UHPC (BHPA) in the north.

We're getting on with developing the joint NMAI / IHPA response to IAA and the old arrangement is as solid as ever - NMAI will represent wheeled aircraft while IHPA will represent FLPA.

Cheers,

>>> Dara <<<

PS - I agree the weather is dire! Maybe I'll get a paragliding flight on the east coast tomorrow afternoon but I'd have to miss the NMAI AGM!

####################################################################

E-Mail from: Dara Hogan E-Mail: dara.hogan@esatclear.ie
Chairman: Irish Hang Gliding & Paragliding Association
Director / Vice-President: National Aero Club of Ireland

Check out our websites at: www.ihpa.ie and www.aeroclub.ie
Check out my paragliding photos at: www.fotki.com/DaraHogan

6 Highfield Court, Marley Grange, Rathfarnham, Dublin 16, Ireland
Home Telephone: +353-1-493-5038 Mobile: +353-86-258-5978

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Dean · Sat May 09, 2009 1:57 pm by Dean

I'm with Oisin on this one.
There seems to be other interests with the 3 groups other than specifically paramotoring and that seems to be where the hang up is, I personally have no interest in joining any of these groups purely for this reason, if there was a Irish Paramotor Association which only had paramotoring as an interest, not paragliding or hang-gliding or microlighting or ballooning or whatever, then yes I think the sport would benefit from this and it could progress safely and work in conjunction with the IAA to enable it to grow properly, I would be very much in favour of this.

What the NMAI have done with microlights could be used as a template for such an association to benchmark against as they seem to be ticking all the boxes, but trying to come under the same umbrella as another type of flying clearly doesnt work as can be clearly seen from all the debates and bitching which pop up every now and again.....beats me why ye cant hang up your gloves and let the thing take shape the way it should rather than trying to claim brownie points for being the representive association for paramotoring.

why not step back from the limelight, stop looking for glory and stick to what you are clearly good at within your own respective organisations, in my view paramotoring would benefit from a Paramotoring association with no other interests- this is quite simply the only option to move forward in my opinion.... one where THIS sport is THE interest....

Quote;
With regard to unity in PPG I'm still pessimistic. There is full unity within NACI and in the last 2 years NACI have initiated three, separate attempts to unify paramotoring without success. This included a professional mediator - Hugh Governey of JSI. NACI can't really see why there is any hope that a fourth attempt would succeed? There is an obvious solution to the unity issue and I know that I sound like a broken record on this one! I would strongly urge all PPGs to join either NMAI or IHPA and I was delighted to see Gordon and some others joining UHPC (BHPA) in the north.

Dara

Why are you being pessimistic- forget about NACI, if the NMAI can do it for microlighting in Ireland then surely a NPAI can do it for paramotoring, its that simple, the reason the talks broke down is because they were among different associations, if the NMAI were to bully in on paragliding then surely you wouldnt have the same opinion of them

Dean

ParaDara · Sat May 09, 2009 3:08 pm by ParaDara

Hi Dean,

Not sure of your point on this? NMAI is the NACI member responsible for microlighting which is where paramotoring sits within the global airsports structure. I believe that a new Irish PPG body not accredited with FAI/NACI would be a complete false start. The individual airsports are far too small to operate in a vacuum and they need to be under the NACI umbrella which also gives them global accreditation. The same structure applies in the UK where BHPA and BMAA are both members of RAeC - the UK equivalent of NACI. The Brits did try to get BPMA (British Paramotoring Association) off the ground in, I think, 2007 but it failed.

Not sure of where your "if the NMAI were to bully in on paragliding" comes from? This couldn't happen because NMAI have no interest in gliding - they're the microlighting association and they're the official representative of paramotoring in Ireland. They're also good guys with whom we're proud to be associated.

In last year's NACI initiative to attempt to unify paramotoring I made our submission to the mediator in which I made exactly the point you're making. If all paramotoring parties were prepared to work together then IHPA would stand back so that NewFed (the working name) could emerge and be recognised by NACI as the unified representative body for paramotoring. IHPA would then pass on its PPG members to become members of NewFed alongside all other Irish PPGs. I believe that NMAI would also support this position but I wouldn't try to speak for them.

As mentioned, the mediator reported back that there was no basis for going forward so I must presume that the NewFed proposal was not acceptable to others.

That's why I'm pessimistic. There were no talks as the mediator couldn't even get us around the table (and we were 100% prepared to attend any meeting he arranged). We've been around the houses so many times on this that I cannot see how another lap will do anything other than make us dizzy!

Cheers,

>>> Dara <<<

####################################################################

E-Mail from: Dara Hogan E-Mail: dara.hogan@esatclear.ie
Chairman: Irish Hang Gliding & Paragliding Association
Director / Vice-President: National Aero Club of Ireland

Check out our websites at: www.ihpa.ie and www.aeroclub.ie
Check out my paragliding photos at: www.fotki.com/DaraHogan

6 Highfield Court, Marley Grange, Rathfarnham, Dublin 16, Ireland
Home Telephone: +353-1-493-5038 Mobile: +353-86-258-5978

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Dr.Dudek · Sat May 09, 2009 3:12 pm by Dr.Dudek

Hi All,

I too would like to see unity among us and have said this a number of times. Im not going to start pointing fingers at anyone as it serves no purpose. I see in the UK that pilots over there support the BHPA/BMAA in huge numbers as do Irish pilots. BHPA have their own PPG panel, so whats stopping us to have the same!!! We in Ireland have NMAI and IHPA so what support do they recieve. If pilots are not happy with what progress is being achieved, why not join, change the way you would like to see PPG in Ireland, develop the sport directly and move forward.
We all want it to move on and be united. (Paddy please dont bash me about the above organisations, im just mearly comparing it to our cousins accross the pond)

Dean having another body may cause more confussion, we are such a small country and having 4+ organisations cant be good. I do however agree with you that one would be enough.

This sport will never grow properly without everyone batting off the same hym sheet.

Just my thoughts

Jason.

Dean · Sat May 09, 2009 9:09 pm by Dean

Dara
I only said
'if' the NMAI were to bully in, obviously bully was a bit strong of a word to use, I was only being hypothetical

Yes I agree with a governing association being under NACI, but am baffled as to where the NMAI have come from to represent paramotoring- now dont go off on a rant here anyone- as I have already said I think its great what the NMAI have done for microlighting, I am involved with the local microlight club and see it clearly, and rekon they 'would' (hypothetically) be a very good organisation to benchmark a paramotoring association on , what they did for microlighting an association could do for paramotoring, but cant understand as to why they would represent paramotoring, when its a completely different sport, which is where the point I made about them bullying into paragliding came from, yes the trike situation could come under that umbrella, BUT, the majority of paramotorists in Ireland are foot launched and that is what I was reffering to....
Jason
I agree completely about having another organisation and its disadvantages, BUT, you might as well tear up that fecking hymn sheet cause I cant see no way theres going to be any singing done from the 3 separate associations...

Guys please note here that I am not dissing any of the good work ye are doing nor do I intend any of my posts on this to be taken personal or an attack on any of ye ( your all good enough at that yourselves :lol:

), but only giving my opinion and saying it as I see it....

by the way, sorry I couldnt reply earlier but I had to struggle with flooded fields, long wet grass and gusty conditions and go out flying..... its actually great fun :wink:

....

Have a good one
Dean

ParaDara · Sat May 09, 2009 11:51 pm by ParaDara

Hi Dean.

Thanks for that clarification.

Without boring the readers to death there are not three separate associations. NMAI and IHPA are sister NGBs within NACI. We're totally co-operating within NACI and the submissions we have both been asked to send to IAA will go in as a single, joint submission from NMAI / IHPA. Between them NMAI and IHPA have about 230 pilots spread across powered and gliding disciplines with lots of pilots flying in more than one classification. The guys in the midlands are not affiliated to any other organisation and it's reasonable to classify them as a separate (and much smaller) unaffiliated association. So it's really just two associations.

Little old Ireland is unlikely to be able to change the global structure of the 200 other countries and their national aero clubs within FAI - the global airsports organisation. That's how the relatively new sport of paramotoring ended up quite logically under CIMA - the FAI microlighting commission to which NMAI are affiliated. As we all know the sport originated with paraglider pilots strapping on 2-stroke engines but paramotoring quickly evolved to become a separate classification (without any necessity to go through paragliding before paramotoring). However, paratrikes are effectively part of that classification with, for example, paratrikes (PL1 and PL2) competing in the UK Nationals alongside paramotors (PF1 and PF2).

Cheers,

>>> Dara <<<

PS - Those flooded fields, long wet grass and gusty conditions don't sound very unattractive but we had the same down here on the east coast. We should be in prime flying time for the 2009 season but conditions are pretty sad! Maybe tomorrow?

####################################################################

E-Mail from: Dara Hogan E-Mail: dara.hogan@esatclear.ie
Chairman: Irish Hang Gliding & Paragliding Association
Director / Vice-President: National Aero Club of Ireland

Check out our websites at: www.ihpa.ie and www.aeroclub.ie
Check out my paragliding photos at: www.fotki.com/DaraHogan

6 Highfield Court, Marley Grange, Rathfarnham, Dublin 16, Ireland
Home Telephone: +353-1-493-5038 Mobile: +353-86-258-5978

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Gerry Walsh · Sun May 10, 2009 12:19 am by Gerry Walsh

I stopped communicating with the IAA after it was suggested by yourself Dara, that it was unhelpful to have too many voices communicating with the IAA, and that there was a feeling that the right people were not being communicated with? Having stayed out of it, I am disappointed that the situation is no better in terms of communication.

Hi Oisin
I can only encourage you and any other pilot who feels their viewpoint is not being represented and wishes to seek changes to the IAA Discussion Paper on possibility of non-ICAO Pilot Licence to cover FLPA’s and Powered Parachute Microlights to contact the IAA and make your views known.

It is still a worry for me and others, that three groups, all well intentioned and with every right to communicate with the IAA, all claim to represent PPG pilots in Ireland.

The IPPHA was formed due to IHPA disinterest and unwillingness to represent FLPA with the IAA, and in order to represent and protect its members’ interests and ensure proper safety and training standards in compliance with aviation law in the Republic of Ireland.

Two years ago, at the time that we were promised a Licence IN in a few months, we were seeking the ability to incorporate wheels on both PPG & PHG for disabled pilots and have made numerous further representations regarding Nano trikes for both disciplines and sought to increase the 70kg in EASA Annex 2 due to the developing increased weights of modern hgs and phg harnesses. We sought to keep nano trikes out of the powered parachuting microlight licensing and airworthiness as there is a huge difference in the canopies and trikes, this 10 hr minimum makes no difference to IPPHA trained pilots as students will still have to complete the syllabus, and the additional syllabus for the trike. We still have to resolve what questions and where the written exam is to be held i.e. in your training school or IAA facility. We have as yet made no progress on the class 2 and the IAA are insisting that pilots from other jurisdictions present themselves with a class 2 and proof of training, rating, logbook, insurance before flying in Ireland (the exact same requirement as Irish Pilots) I've briefly reviewed documents relating to FLPA and can not find the 40 hrs that basically treated FLPA pilots as full microlight PPL pilots that Dara mentions

Maybe I am being a bit naive, hoping we could pull together for the better good, but the current situation is hardly ideal.

Having met and had very detailed discussions with representatives of the main Associations in the Republic of Ireland I do not believe there is any realistic chance of achieving the level of co-operation which would be required to bring about a situation in which all of the Associations and participants in the sport could ‘speak with one voice’ within and outside the sport nationally and internationally. Is the response we received for Hugh Governey of JSI. We have the greatest respect for Hugh and have indicated our willingness to have him chair proposed further meetings and have since met with FAI Vice President Terry Rowan, Kevin Hogan NACI and Tom McCormack NACI in an effort to resolve the situation (and are continuing to do so).

Daras presumption "that the NewFed proposal was not acceptable to others" does not fit in with any conversation we had with Hugh and reads like the usual spin, cynics have suggested that the NACI are again deliberately participating in obstructionism in pursuit of maintaining the Status Quo.

As we wrote earlier "We welcome the proposed changes" of non-ICAO Pilot Licence, this does not imply we did not again express our members displeasure and impatience at the delays and the limited improvements offered, we will be consulting with our members before we respond to the IAA.
Kind regards
Gerry

ParaDox · Sun May 10, 2009 8:47 pm by ParaDox

It is sad reading this forum! Hell it's even embarassing seeing grown men squabbling over who should have the credit for what. Jason, I agree wholeheartedly (as i'm sure many others would) with your view that one representative organisation would suffice for the needs of ppg pilots in Ireland as long as that organisation is representative of PPG pilots.
Sadly no such organisation exists. Let me again revert to plain english:
IHPA represents the private agenda of one D Hogan and a few of his cronies, so they can use it's members to pay for their courses.
IPPHA represents the private agenda of one J Parles and a few of his cronies, so they can use it to further their business interests in paramotor and paragliding in Ireland.
NACI .. Well, they've been on the 'sport aviation' since nineteen oh splash and they have achieved . . . aah! let me see now . . . They have a site on internet.
Let's face it . . . None of these three organisation represent people like me. I am a paramotor pilot, I am a paraglider pilot, and I am an ordinary Joe Soap without the airs and graces and I DO NOT WANT these organisations CLAIMING to represent me. I can't get my views to the IAA because the IAA has NO REPRESENTATIVE body for ppg pilots to debate with! Other than the aforementioned glory seekers and business interests.
The solution that these said organs regularly come with is to 'join them' and effect 'change from within! Well, which one should all us ppgs join do you think? According to each, it should be just them! The fact of the matter is neither of them are representative of Irish paramotor pilots.I was at the inaugarel meeting of IPPHA, which in fact makes me a founding member

Again I will publicly ask that same committee (and it is the same committee) to put their money where their mouth is and let me meet ONE other IPPHA member (other than its committee). The fact of the matter is that the committee is probably the membership also and that is why I as a member could not get hold of one single other member. Of course I was also expelled for repeatedly insisting on my right to meet other members of my club. A right that was never incidently fullfilled! I don't think I'll bother with IPPHA.
As for IHPA, I actually sent in an application for membership on Friday, acting on the advice to 'effect change from within' and not least the fact that IHPA is offering FREE membership up until March 31st. I may withdraw that application again (no guarantee that I'd be accepted anyway) Let's face it I have differing views as to what a representative organisation entails.
These organisation have a track record that speaks volumes and that is why ppgs are not flocking to support or join it.

Solution for Irish Pilots: Simple .. Cut the billshut, get yourselves organised into ONE REPRESENTATIVE organisation WITHOUT the CRAP from IHPA and IPPHA. Shut them out, and keep them out. At this stage we all know where their interests lie. Or do you still actually believe that they are the Nationa Governing Bodies or indeed that they represent you?

Hell, let's make it easy for ourselves. Use the technology. Set up a poll and take a vote on this question:
Should Irish PPG Pilots join
A: IHPA B: IPPHA C: Form a New Represent Org
The rule for voting is that you can't vote for yourself . . . .

ParaDara · Mon May 11, 2009 12:27 am by ParaDara

Hi Paddy Bullman (AKA Paradox),

You're really just mouthing off and I hope that the others on this list see you for what you are!

I strongly resent resent and deny your statement that "IHPA represents the private agenda of one D Hogan and a few of his cronies, so they can use it's members to pay for their courses". We have 107 members (not cronies) and we are certainly committed to pilot training. We have expended members' funds on training courses and on sponsoring Irish pilots representing their country in Europe. We're a registered limited company and our accounts are audited by an external auditor and approved by our members at our AGM. If you have any corporate governance issues to raise then please state them firstly in writing to the IHPA Secretary (see website) and, if you're not satisfied then I suggest that you raise them in writing with NACI. I suspect that you have no specifics and that you're simply bad-mouthing as in the past. The last time I checked you were not a member of IHPA and we're really only interested in representing our members.

Incidentally I was first elected to the IHPA Executive Committee in 1998 and have been re-elected every year since then firstly as Treasurer and then as Chairman. If I'm as appallingly hopeless and terrible as you imply then why have our members re-elected me year after year? The truth is that my colleagues and I are putting in many long hours of voluntary work for our airsports and our members are more than satisfied with our results.

Many Ireland-PPG members might not be aware that this excellent independent forum was resurrected by Oisin and Gordon last year when its predecessor, PMI (Paramotoring Ireland) collapsed due to your partisan moderation. Fair dues to you for setting up PMI but that little bit of power seemed to go to your head. You completely lost it and you strangled at birth the fine opportunity that you had identified. My understanding is that Oisin and Gordon quite rightly abandoned you, you disappeared to Finland and they set up Ireland-PPG just as PMI disappeared up its own backside!

My favourite memory of your ineptitude with PMI was your aggressive and partisan response when I dared to warn readers that a paramotor wing being offered for sale by a mate of yours was dangerous, ancient and wildly over-priced. You actually modified my online text to make it appear that your mate was offering a model aircraft for sale and that I had misunderstood the original advert! I still have screen grabs of your malicious handiwork on that occasion if you'd care to see them. It was hilarious but subversive and intended to make me look silly and while you distracted forum readers from the serious flight safety issue that I had dared to raise.

My other less-amusing memory is your abusive phone-call to me after I dared to defend NACI on the PMI forum. After your first sequence of profanities I put down the phone! Freedom of speech is not really high on your list of priorities unless, of course, the opinions expressed are aligned with your own opinions.

Really, Paddy, maybe you would tell this forum what you personally have actually achieved for Irish airsports. My colleagues and I in NACI, NMAI and IHPA quietly and voluntarily work in the background managing our airsports while you blow hot air and bluster. You're absolutely entitled to your views but I'm also entitled to mine which are that you're not really at the races. Please note that neither IHPA does not claim to represent you unless you're a member of IHPA. I did think that you were a member of NMAI and, if so, you can be assured that those guys are very effectively representing their members?

My advice to you, Paddy, would be to simply enjoy flying and to leave the administration of airsports to my colleagues in IHPA, NMAI and NACI who know how to operate in effective teams and to co-operate for the benefit of Irish airsports. Your record of mayhem and bluster is not going to take anyone forward!

>>> Dara <<<

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E-Mail from: Dara Hogan E-Mail: dara.hogan@esatclear.ie
Chairman: Irish Hang Gliding & Paragliding Association
Director / Vice-President: National Aero Club of Ireland

Check out our websites at: www.ihpa.ie and www.aeroclub.ie
Check out my paragliding photos at: www.fotki.com/DaraHogan

6 Highfield Court, Marley Grange, Rathfarnham, Dublin 16, Ireland
Home Telephone: +353-1-493-5038 Mobile: +353-86-258-5978

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Gordon Dunn · Mon May 11, 2009 6:24 am by Gordon Dunn

I think we all need to get outside for a flight... remember what this forum is about.... FLYING.. not politics... lets get out there, and do something we all enjoy.... then during the dark winter evenings we can decide who wants to wear the hat.

Is anyone else flying?

ParaDara · Mon May 11, 2009 8:58 am by ParaDara

Hi Pilots,

Paddy Bullman (AKA Paradox) wrote:

Set up a poll and take a vote on this question:
Should Irish PPG Pilots join
A: IHPA B: IPPHA C: Form a New Represent Org

Firstly, I think Paddy should have inserted NMAI as an option as they are officially recognised through FAI and NACI as the representative association for all microlights which is how PPGs are classified.

However, on the choices open my vote is for C - a new organisation to represent PPGs. IHPA has made a number of unsuccessful attempts to set-up a new paramotoring federation but one group don't want to even come to the table without setting pre-requisites. The independent mediator came back and reported that he could find no way forward.

If a new representative association for PPGs (NewFed) can be set up IHPA will stand back from PPG and refer its powered members to NewFed. Indeed NMAI have a very progressive view of life and although I can't speak for them I believe that they, too, might well support a NewFed development.

Cheers,

>>> Dara <<<

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E-Mail from: Dara Hogan E-Mail: dara.hogan@esatclear.ie
Check out my paragliding photos at: www.fotki.com/DaraHogan

6 Highfield Court, Marley Grange, Rathfarnham, Dublin 16, Ireland
Home Telephone: +353-1-493-5038 Mobile: +353-86-258-5978

“The rich must live simply so that the poor may simply live” [Mahatma Gandhi]

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ParaDox · Mon May 11, 2009 1:15 pm by ParaDox

ParaDara wrote:Hi Paddy Bullman (AKA Paradox),

You're really just mouthing off and I hope that the others on this list see you for what you are!

Yes! I do hope others see me for what I am. I am a ppg pilot and I am expressing my opinion.

we're really only interested in representing our members

How many ppg pilots are members of IHPA?

The truth is that my colleagues and I are putting in many long hours of voluntary work for our airsports and our members are more than satisfied with our results.

I'm delighted that your members are happy with your work. But most of the pilots on this forum are not your members and some of them are not happy with the work you claim to do on their behalf. Are you listening at all to what people say on this forum?

PMI disappeared up its own backside!

Yes! Quite right. PMI fell apart . . . Although it worked quite well up until certain IHPA and other organisations members joined up with it. Also, during that debate the forum was physically attacked by some kind of virus. Michael Hastings might help me out on this one. What was it called Michael? Something illegal and malicious anyway.

You actually modified my online text to make it appear that your mate was offering a model aircraft for sale and that I had misunderstood the original advert! I still have screen grabs of your malicious handiwork on that occasion if you'd care to see them.[/quote
I did NOT modify anything and you DID misunderstand the advert! and I am in NO way aquainted with the advertiser.

My understanding is that Oisin and Gordon quite rightly abandoned you

I was so broken hearted when they jilted me like that, That's why I had to flee to Finland and fly constantly for hours on end almost every day for a long summer and autumn and fly all the baltic states and poland and germany, all to forget the hurt they caused me when they abandoned me for you. I'm still broken hearted.

Paddy, maybe you would tell this forum what you personally have actually achieved for Irish airsports

I hereby make NO claim to having done anything for the sport. Neither have I any desire for any such claims.

My advice to you, Paddy, would be to simply enjoy flying and to leave the administration of airsports to my colleagues in IHPA, NMAI and NACI who know how to operate in effective teams and to co-operate for the benefit of Irish airsports. Your record of mayhem and bluster is not going to take anyone forward!

This really takes the biscuit! When did these organisations become administrations for paramotoring? Who elected them to do so? What backing do they have among the PPG Pilots of Ireland? And so far we have seen that results of our 'Representative' aviation organisations so far. I am standing in the niddle of it's mess!

NMAI is a horse of a different colour to any of the other organisations you mentioned. It DOES EFFECTIVLY represent ITS members and DOES NOT claim to represent Irish PPG Pilots. Although some of its members ARE ppg pilots.

John · Mon May 11, 2009 2:22 pm by John

ParaDox · Mon May 11, 2009 8:39 pm by ParaDox

Has anybody else noticed how a particular issue re-emerges on this forum every now and again?

I notice that this usually happens shortly after input from certain quarters claiming to represent PPG in Ireland is questioned or criticised.

From what I can see this is usually what happens:
One of two organisations on their own authority inlead debate and/or negotiations with the IAA under the FALSE CLAIMS that they are representing Irish PPG Pilots. Then they appear on this forum patting themselves on the back and start explaining what they have achieved for me with the aviation authorities ON MY BEHALF, without my knowledge, without my participation, without my permission and without any backing among irish ppg pilots generally.

Shortly thereafter I get on the forum and say what I think of their 'unsolicited' representation. Whereupon the debate is on again . . .

I know there are a lot of ppg pilots following this debate. Unfortunately, most of them choose not to 'get involved'. As soon as this debate raises its ugly head most of the people sitting on the fence duck down behind it and watch from a safe distance. There are surely several reasons for this, most people will prefer to avoid confrontation, most subscribers to this forum are actually anonymous and may be afraid to 'expose' themselves for fear of repercussion from authorities. Let's face it, most ppg pilots I know do not have exemptions. (we've all been there)
I quite understand their fears. We have all listened to the scare mongering tactics spread from various sources. 'The IAA will send the cops to confiscate your equipment' unless of course you join our club and do things our way. These so called 'organisations' would like the uninitiated and the newcomer to think that they are some kind of authority, I have met several newcomers to this sport that were under the impression that to fly 'legally' in Ireland they had to be a member of IHPA, that the insurance could only be had through them and that they would require a 'licence' that was issued by IHPA, seeing as it was the national governing body. Indeed that was the impression I had after my first contact with IHPA. Such a load of drivel. It would be funny if it wasn't so serious. These organisations have their own interest at heart and have no scruples in spreading false information to newcomers to this sport. All to further their own interests, while at the same time having the neck to say they have my interests in mind.
These same people will ridicule my opinions while they at the same time tell me they represent me.

As Irish ppg pilots this is what we have to choose from in the future:
More of this unsolicited 'representation' by IHPA and other self professed representatives and being told afterwards and without our input how and when and where and under what terms we get to fly and what negotiations will be had 'on our behalf'! or .. or .. we will stand up and be counted, we will express our views and opinions to the 'relevant' authorities WITHOUT fear of repercussion and we WILL have OUR say in the future development of OUR sport. Sadly, to do that, we need ONE representative body, which we absolutely do not have!

We can also let Dara Hogan sort it all out for us, he and others like him have done a fantastic job of uniting pilots in this sport so far . . . .

Or we can even just stay down behind the fence in the long grass and watch this debate when it comes up every now and again, because Gentlemen this is unfinished business and you can bet yer ass it will continue until WE deal with it. This will not go away on its own if we just bury our heads in the sand. It will come again and again and again.

What are ye going to do about it?

Don't know about ye ... but I'm not going to be sittting on that fence . . .

ParaDara · Mon May 11, 2009 11:20 pm by ParaDara

Hi Paradox (AKA Paddy Bullman),

I thought that I'd made it clear before but I'll say it again as it doesn't seem to be sinking in to that brain of yours! IHPA only represents its own members. We don't represent you, we don't want to represent you and we never claimed to represent you (or anyone outside IHPA). You like to jump up and down claiming that we have attempted to represent you but that's completely untrue - and you know it! IAA called us in because IHPA has been representing our pilots (both HG/PHG and PG/PPG) for more than 35 years. I'm not sure why you're hallucinating about IHPA representing you - we simply don't and we never claimed to do so. Could that be any clearer??? Please tell me when and where IHPA ever tried to represent you?

You allege that newcomers have been told by IHPA that:

"to fly 'legally' in Ireland they had to be a member of IHPA, that the insurance could only be had through them and that they would require a 'licence' that was issued by IHPA, seeing as it was the national governing body"

This is quite hilarious but since you're being so specific maybe you would tell this forum who said this, to whom they said it and when they said it? I think you and I both know that this is complete bluster and bullshit and that you're engaging in vague, generalised mud-slinging without a single specific to back it up. Our website has provided detailed, accurate and useful information to free-flying and powered HGs and PGs for many years - nothing like the nonsense that you're spouting. Come back with the specifics Paddy or apologise for misleading the forum users with these untruths.

I should mention that pilots who want an FAI Sporting Licence or an IPPI card can only get them through IHPA or NMAI. Any pilot can get insurance from a number of underwriters but it is interesting that the policies pioneered by IHPA and NMAI through SportsCover Direct and OnRisk are now the mainstay of insurance cover for sports pilots. As Charles Caleb Colton said "Imitation is the sincerest of flattery"!

Yours patiently,

>>> Dara <<<

P.S. We are still awaiting your list of achievements for PPGs. Or maybe you just believe that your role is simply to cause as much negative dissent and mayhem as possible without a single, credible positive initiative whatsoever.

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E-Mail from: Dara Hogan E-Mail: dara.hogan@esatclear.ie
Chairman - Irish Hang Gliding & Paragliding Association
Director & Treasurer – National Aero Club of Ireland

Check out our websites at: www.ihpa.ie and www.aeroclub.ie
Check out my paragliding photos at: www.fotki.com/DaraHogan

6 Highfield Court, Marley Grange, Rathfarnham, Dublin 16, Ireland
Home Telephone: +353-1-493-5038 Mobile: +353-86-258-5978

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IAA changes for PPG?

IAA changes for PPG?

I would rather be flying . . .

yada yada yada .. .. ... !!!! Yawn!

The Never Ending Debate

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