Paddy - you really need to take a chillpill !


"It is often better to keep one's mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt."

I underlined 'both parties' above 'cos in my opinion that should read 'all parties'

Dean, You write as though you take it for granted that every move a ppg pilot makes has to be run by Gerry and Dara to see if it might be OK with them?

Here's my opinion: I don't give a toss about what what Gerry or Dara think they might or might not agree to.

In fact it is my opinion that they are the ones responsible for the divisions we now have to put up with.

Here's another opinion I have: I want a representative organisation for me, formed by people like me, to represent MY interests as ONE of many Irish ppg pilots, and I want it's eventual committee made up of people that will look after MY interests and not use MY membership for their own goals. I want IHPA and IPPPPPPHHHA and any other glory seekers well away from it.

And I'll bet you I'm not on my own on that !!!!

Do you have a solution for it?

I don't have a complete solution, but I know where I'm going to start!

Let ALL ppg pilots meet up (no preconditions) and sort this out. The technology to do this is there. This forum is a perfect tool for it. But to achieve it, every ppg pilot needs to express his/her views and stand up for it. Or of course we can carry on as usual and let somebody else express our views for us!

Hi Forum Admin, what do ye say? Could we use the forum to figure out a few basics?

First we need to find out if the majority of Irish PPG Pilots (exemptioned or otherwise) want ?


Cheers Paddy

Pat, I notice you live in Northern Ireland. Do you have people representing you up there without your knowledge?

Would me taking that pill of yours sort out our issues here in Eire? Post it to me would you please? God I'm glad somebody eventually thought of a solution . . . . .


Another suggestion if I may! Let's move this debate to the 'Paramotor Discussion' section and sort it out once and for all.

Put it on hold though . . . I'm goin' flying . . . See yees all later

Ok, off the fence. I have been reluctant to express an opinion because when I have in the past I got an immediate response that I felt was designed to 'put me in my place', 'baffle me with bullshit' and used as a platform for somebody else's agenda.

I dont feel that my interests are being represented by any of the existing organisations, whether I am a member or not. I have no interest in joining any of them. The 'grandads' (No reference to any particular person) of the sport seem too intrenched in their own ways and take offense at any alternative views. (I fully expect a certain person to take issue with this, as I guess we all do).

All of the good work that was done in the past has been undermined by the bad grace shown when other people expressed an alternative view. This is not democracy. This is not what millions died defending. When I express an opinion, I dont want a personal response or an argument. It's just my f@#$ing opinion but its as valid as any other. This is why I think they have lost the respect of a lot of pilots, including me.

I would like to see a new organisation to represent my rights in the sport, unhindered by the existing organisations. They're just not working and dont have the support they need to make changes, in my humble opinion.

Chris

Hi Paddy,

With regard to my last post, unless i have over seen something??

Your point being!!!!!!!!!!!

Yours,

Jason.

Hi Paddy,

You said:


Total IHPA Investment in Jason Killian Over 3 Years (2006 to 2008)
€500

Total Return on IHPA Investment
Placed 6th out of 48 pilots in 2008 UK Paramotoring Nationals

Paddy, that's what NGBs (National Governing Bodies) like IHPA call "a result". IHPA is committed to supporting their pilots who are training and competing. We wish we had more pilots as good as Jason so that we could sponsor them too. IHPA also sponsor training for Irish hang gliding and paragliding teams representing their country abroad.

NGBs (National Governing Bodies)
PPG NGBs are appointed by FAI/CIMA in Lausanne. The IAA issues individual pilot licences and regulates aviation activities including RTFs (Registered Training facilities). The Irish Sports Council funds NGBs. Lets not confuse the readers with your mistaken impression that either the IAA or the ISC appoint NGBs. Neither does!

Cheers,

>>> Dara <<<

####################################################################

E-Mail from: Dara Hogan E-Mail: dara.hogan@esatclear.ie
Chairman: Irish Hang Gliding & Paragliding Association
Director / Vice-President: National Aero Club of Ireland

Check out our websites at: www.ihpa.ie and www.aeroclub.ie
Check out my paragliding photos at: www.fotki.com/DaraHogan

6 Highfield Court, Marley Grange, Rathfarnham, Dublin 16, Ireland
Home Telephone: +353-1-493-5038 Mobile: +353-86-258-5978

####################################################################

Hi Paddy,

With all your forum messages you've been so busy that you appear to have overlooked a few outstanding items. Maybe you could satisfy your readers' curiosity with replies to the following:

SportsCover Direct and OnRisk Insurance (IHPA and NMAI)
You claimed this was a figment of my imagination until I explained that I negotiated special terms with SportsCover Direct for IHPA about 10 years ago. Similarly, NMAI have negotiated cover with microlight insurers including OnRisk for quite a few years. Maybe you could now substantiate or withdraw your allegation?

Malicious Allegations against IHPA
What started out as your false allegation that lots of people were being misled by IHPA morphed, in the same sentence, to one unnamed newbie and a mock "plea" for that anonymous person to come forward. I repeat my request that you either substantiate your nonsensical allegations against IHPA or withdraw them.

Confused Reasoning
Firstly, you castigated IHPA for representing non-IHPA pilots (which we don't) and in the next sentence you castigated IHPA for not consulting with you before we go in to the IAA! These are mutually exclusive requests - please explain which one you would like us to take forward?

You're really filling up the forum these days so I do hope that you will find the time to respond to these specific outstanding queries which seem to have escaped your attention.

Cheers,

>>> Dara <<<

####################################################################

E-Mail from: Dara Hogan E-Mail: dara.hogan@esatclear.ie
Chairman: Irish Hang Gliding & Paragliding Association
Director / Vice-President: National Aero Club of Ireland

Check out our websites at: www.ihpa.ie and www.aeroclub.ie
Check out my paragliding photos at: www.fotki.com/DaraHogan

6 Highfield Court, Marley Grange, Rathfarnham, Dublin 16, Ireland
Home Telephone: +353-1-493-5038 Mobile: +353-86-258-5978

####################################################################

I have been avoiding Daras' self-serving triads since the Hessian days of the old forum.
It is depressing to see his negative, poisonous presence persist even though his comments are as welcome here as they were on the old forum.

To actually read Daras attempts to claim credit for the On-risk insurance situation is sickening and a pathetic new low even for him.

None of us who supported the old forum that this one so ably replaces would recognise Dara Hogan’s rather self-congratulatory recollection.

The first paramotor pilot in the Republic of Ireland to be insured by On-risk was me! I was the first they insured here and the reason this happened was a minor accident of fate.

I was in Spain on a flying holiday and my insurance with (Sports direct) required updating when I attempted to print it out only one page of the document came out. It happened to contain the list of sports, which sport direct insured.

For the first time read through the long list of sports to find “Para motoring” but for the first time noticed an axtrix along side it. (How many of us have read the entire insurance form?)

At the bottom of the form was a sentence, which read to the effect that the company accepted no risk for motorised activities. I cannot remember the exact text now but I was sufficiently alarmed at the time to call Sports Direct on my mobile phone from Spain and ask them what this meant. I was reassured that I was in fact covered for Para motoring and paragliding and that I would be contacted by a member of the company's sales in the near future. True to their word, I was contacted the next day and was reassured of the company line. However, it seemed to me somewhat suspect that a statement like this should appear in the document.

The following week at home, I was involved in a property deal (Yes I was one of those!) and was visiting my solicitor in relation to this. I had the Sports Direct document in the car and decided to give him a look to see what he thought of it.

I was informed in no certain terms by my solicitor that by signing the insurance form I was effectively indemnifying Sports Direct from any responsibility in the event of my having an accident while Para motoring. (It subsequently transpired that the only Para motoring cover the policy gave was if one had the Paramotor in the car while parked or in transit.) If it was on my back and the engine was running, I was effectively out of cover.

I brought this up on our forum immediately and I am sure Oisin, Gordon, Paddy and pretty much everyone who came to the old forum will remember this. It was big news since it effectively meant none of us had the cover we needed or indeed thought we had. The string on the forum went on for several pages and at a meeting in Cork I was asked to continue pursuing the insurance issue and to see if Sports Direct would either modify their cover to our purposes or to seek out any alternative.

At this point I was casting around for an alternative and a good friend from the BHPA told me that a company called On-risk, who were in the aviation insurance business for years were considering offering a comprehensive Para motoring insurance package in the near future. I looked them up and phoned them on speck to ascertain when they would be making a decision on Para motoring. To my surprise and delight, I was informed that they were insuring as of the next day. I immediately took out cover and got on the forum to spread the news.

It was at this point that Dara Hogan involved himself. I recall that Daras contribution were as unwelcome as they were condescending. He cast aspersions upon the “new guys on the block” and expressed the view that they may not be legitimate etc. Etc. When it was clear that we were all going to change from Sports Direct he climbed on board claiming that “contacts he had” had assured him as to the credentials of On-risk, I'm sure none of us could have cared less what he thought.

Weeks later I received a phone call from a member of the On-risk staff and was asked a number of rather strange questions about IHPA, NACI and about the Irish Aviation Authority. It seems that they had been invited to a meeting in Dublin and that the IHPA had quite a shopping list. On this list was a demand that IHPA members would receive special reduced rates for its Para motoring members. (No Quibble with that as far as I am concerned, just looking after their membership!)

The next and much more insidious demand was that On-risk would offer insurance to IHPA members only, i.e. no non-IHPA members were to be given insurance. It was implied that IHPA was sufficiently “in” with the Irish Aviation Authority to insure that there would be “consequences” if these demands/suggestions were not met.

On-risk also had received information from IHPA about a certain Mr. Kevin Swords of the Irish Aviation Authority. The information was of an extraordinarily disparaging nature casting serious doubt upon his competence, honesty and personal integrity. I was able to reassure my caller that my experiences of Mr Swords were that he was a person of impeccable integrity and professionalism in the very best traditions of the Irish civil service and provided her with his phone number.

At the subsequent meeting, which took place in Dublin, approximately two weeks later Dara Hogan walked out the door with absolutely nothing. No special IHPA deal, and most importantly for all the rest of us, no blanket ban on non-members of IHPA.

Sorry about the long boring story but I felt I simply could not remain silent while Dara attempted to claim credit for something, which, if he had got his way, would have resulted in none of us being able to get paramotor insurance without joining his paragliding club.

Kindest regards to all of you.

Michael Hastings

Paddy
I am not impressed with your post, you asked for folk to 'come down off the fence' and give their opinion, which I clearly did, and indeed if you had read the P.S. at the bottom you would clearly see that I myself hadnt read over my post and hoped people would take the correct meaning from it..... so what do you do , you start quoting and taking things out of context..........if the opinion you get doesnt match your opinion then you go off on one.....how do you expect people to give their opinion if you behave like that, I agree with a lot of what you are saying but theres no point in loosing the plot all the time
I never meant that anything had to be run by Gery or Dara, far from it, but what I was trying to suggest that them and ALL pilots could have a say in how this sport goes forward, obivously I didnt come accross the way I wanted.
But what I do recognise is that these guys, whether anyone likes it(or them) or not have put a lot of time into bringing the sport this far, they have set up the training syllabus with the IAA, a hell of a lot more than you or I or any other person on this forum has, now this sport has grown and is growing fast maybe they and us need to look at how this could move forward and keep the rules as minimal as possible, theres enough regulation here already.....all I was saying was that I recognise that they have put a lot of time and effort into this sport, even if only the paperwork side of things, certainly something I wouldnt be interested in doing.....
You're behaving like pirates at sea trying to take over the ship now that the hard work of getting it out of the port is done.....all I was saying was maybe we could all work together on this as one body, with EVERYONE involved, putting past differences and grievances aside, not suggesting that we all get on like a house on fire, but to do that may be , it seems, a hard pill for a few folk to swallow.....
Sorting this out on a froum, public or private will never work, that will only suit the keyboard huggers, the thread/topic can go off on a different route too easy, where if we are all in the one room/field then a solution could be had one way or another...... I would rather see a field used than a room, at least then when I get bored listening to the same old rant I can get my kit out and fly, after all thats where my interest lies...
Yours ,(ready for the firing squad)
Dean

Hi Mike,

I'm absolutely staggered by your mail. I'm used to being attacked by Paddy and a few others but you seem to have completely lost the run of yourself! Firstly you need to re-read my earlier post:



Just for clarity let me state that I have never met anyone from OnRisk. There was a long queue at the OnRisk stand at SPLASH last November so I didn't even get to meet them then either. I have never negotiated special terms for IHPA or anyone else with OnRisk.

I'm sure you're right that you, Mike, and lots of other PPGs were certainly insured and in touch with OnRisk long before I ever knew of them because I was insured with Bartlett's in the UK when I first bought a paramotor in 2006. From memory I only switched over to OnRisk in 2007 when Bartlett's withdrew from the market.

Neither I nor IHPA ever invited OnRisk to a meeting in Dublin and I have never attended a meeting in Dublin or anywhere else with OnRisk. Accordingly, and for the record, I never presented OnRisk (or any insurer) with a "shopping-list" of concessions and, finally, since I never had a meeting with them, I never walked out of any meeting with them or with any other insurer.

One other point is relevant. You said:



This is completely ludicrous as we completely avoided the IAA for decades. We were far from "in" with them. Up until 2007, IHPA's official policy (adopted by our members at AGM) was to have no contact with IAA. This was due to the very negative experiences of parachutists, balloonists, microlighters and other pilots when dealing with the IAA. Accordingly, my first ever meeting with IAA was a consultation on 28-Jun-07 (which was also attended by Jerry Parles & Co). We only met IAA then because of the growing number of IHPA powered pilots whose interests we had to represent. Moreover, we never engaged in any detailed discussions with IAA on insurance matters (other than on the obvious requirement for insurance).

My first contact with OnRisk related to my personal cover in Jul-07 and that was because NMAI recommended them to me. They did confirm to me that there were no group discount deals available (as IHPA have with SportsCover Direct). My next contact with them was my renewal in 2008 - again only over the phone and only with regard to my personal kit. I have checked my diaries on this and I have logged my contacts with OnRisk in my database as I don't like relying on my memory.

One clarification might help. NMAI have had extensive contacts with OnRisk and have, I think, a group policy arrangement. They have had many meetings with OnRisk including meetings in Ireland. I have no knowledge of any of these meetings, have never attended any of them, have never provided input to those meetings or seen the minutes of those meetings. I'm an ordinary member of NMAI and I only joined earlier this year.

So, to clarify, I set up the original group discount with SportsCover Direct for IHPA hang gliders and paragliders about a decade ago and, since then, lots of Irish pilots inside and outside IHPA have benefited from SCD policies. I have never negotiated any policies for IHPA or anyone else with OnRisk (other than insuring my personal kit).

In relation to "Kevin Swords Appreciation Society" this thread already records my personal satisfaction in my dealings with Kevin. However, it also records his reputation among many pilots who have cautioned me as a result of their experiences with Kevin.

So, Mike, is there any chance that you're ever so slightly off-side on this one? I know that the NMAI people have had a very positive, long-term relationship with OnRisk over a number of years but I know nothing of the details.

In order to resolve this maybe you could now revert to tell the list when I ever attended any meeting with OnRisk? I know that the answer is "never" but by answering that question you will go a small way to clearing my good name which you have so casually attempted to damage. I expect a retraction and an apology while you're at it!

Cheers,

>>> Dara <<<

P.S. I must now check my OnRisk cover to make sure that I am getting the NMAI rate since I joined NMAI after I took out my personal cover with OnRisk.

####################################################################

E-Mail from: Dara Hogan E-Mail: dara.hogan@esatclear.ie
Chairman: Irish Hang Gliding & Paragliding Association
Director / Vice-President: National Aero Club of Ireland

Check out our websites at: www.ihpa.ie and www.aeroclub.ie
Check out my paragliding photos at: www.fotki.com/DaraHogan

6 Highfield Court, Marley Grange, Rathfarnham, Dublin 16, Ireland
Home Telephone: +353-1-493-5038 Mobile: +353-86-258-5978

####################################################################

Lads,
can I summarise what I see from reading this thread, my summary is taken from a completer outsiders point of view, I am not a paramotor pilot, I fly microlights. I have an interest in paramotors, I have an interest in anything that fly's....

There seems to be a hell of a lot of different opinions, but here is the clux, you all are probably trying to sing from the one hymn-sheet, but all are a bit out of tune, some more than others.

This is a sport, plain and simple, maybe its time to forget trying to sort out the political issues on a forum, public/private or otherwise..... get together in a room, and within an hour you will all find that you all have much more in common than any differences you have.
In the end it is all about flying, all about being up there enjoying the thrill of flight. Maybe start by beginning to try and see the others persons "slightly" different point of view... that is all.

I intend at sometime to take up paramotoring, rest assured my approach will be to fly, not to argue the subtle differences voiced on this thread.

Dont let this forum turn into a slagging match and end up destroying what has been done, this forum works well, lets keep it that way. I for one am a regular browser in here and the consensus I have always found is that the regular contributors give their knowledge freely, help the other person along and enjoy their flying, lets not destroy it with bickering and by using aggressive & vulgar language, life is too short for this craic.

All the best,
Jon Kilpatrick
Microlight Pilot & someday paramotor pilot.

Here Here! Jonkil..... Full agreement.....

Paddy, perhaps you should continue this thread on your forum?

Gordon, by all means! On any forum you like . . .

Or am I to understand by your snide remark that in your valued opinion, my views are not worth listening to, at least not on Irelandppg's oh so politically correct forum. Or unless they are forwarded in a manner more to your taste.

By the way it is just that kind of condescending attitude I have become used to on this and other forums as soon as it involves certain subscribers. But, just 'cos I'm used to it doesn't mean I'll take it lying down.

I'll keep asking this question . . . Are we (ppg pilots) going to meet up face to face and sort this bullshit out or are ye going to carry on talking shit on this forum?

Of course my 'base' way of expressing myself and my opinions might be offensive to a lot of people who clearly seem to regard their opinions as better somehow, probably because they come wrapped in 'finer' wording.
Live with it!

Let me direct this to every other pilot on this forum: In my opinion my views are exactly as good as anyone elses on this forum or anywhere else on the ppg scene. Also it is my opinion that a lot of pilots on this forum are full of shit and some even think they're better than others.

Keep me posted on whatever progress might be made on this big pow wow if we can get far enough past the bullshit to pull it off.

Paddy

Paddy, you've already destroyed one forum and lost many good contacts, and seems like you're intent in spreading hatfullness again!
I see you've only contributed 32 posts, they're mainly all dedicated to this issue..... haven't you got anything better do to... can you contribute to flying discussion... You are as valued as 'Tye'

Right lads
This is getting completely out of hand, and way too personal .
We are all getting worked up here to an extent that we are making ourselves look like fools, lunatics, cavemen, psychos......
This is a sport, a pastime, a hobby, something which all of us do to enjoy ourselves and something we all enjoy doing.
Picture this..... I am joe soap living in Galway, thinking, after watching mission everest the other night, that I would like this paramotor craic, I log onto google and do a search for paramotor in Ireland, up pops this great paramotor forum, I'll log on there and find out more about this sport...... look what I will be reading......theres no way in hell joe is going to be interested in this , by reading this nonsense one would think I would have to be insane to join these crowd......
Is this the image we want, is this the hassle we want reading and winding each other up???
At the end of the day we all have a very common interest....Paramotoring....this is a simple sport, lets keep it simple.
Now I know things have been said, and done at this stage which shouldnt have been done, we have and will have differences, we always will, its human nature, but this is going to have to be put behind us and calm down and move forward, we all do things and say things we shouldnt, but please this has to stop tonight, it has gone far enough.
I am going to finish writing and give Gordon a call and ask him to lock this thread for 2 days, if anyone has any grieviances with please take them up with me not him.....now please do not think that I am trying to take over or take charge, I've absolutely no interest in that, but as I said in an earlier post I have made a lot of very good friends and dont want to lose any before I even meet them.
We ALL need to pull together on this and put it to bed for once and for all, so please dont start this up, just give it 2 days and we can all calm down and take a fresh approach on this....
I would rather see this locked and reopened than have it deleted and pretend it will go away ..... until the next time it raises its head.....
Yours
Dean

Worth a try- This section will be locked from posts until Sunday morning- 17th May.

GD

****EDIT****************EDIT****************EDIT************


Please note- any attempt to divert this topic onto another forum discussion category will not be tolerated during the 'cool off' period- messages will subsequently be deleted.

Members are free to post any messages regarding any other topic in any of the other discussion categories- as normal.


GD (Moderator)

Ok Folks
Since Thursday night, I have managed to talk to a good few pilots, obviously I couldn't manage to talk to everyone, and the opinion of EVERYONE is we must get this situation sorted out now and move forward and enjoy this sport.

What I propose is we ALL meet up somewhere, preferably a field, on a Sunday morning, say 11am, and we can all voice our opinions in a civilised and respectful manner, despite any differences we may have, I will draw up a short agenda which will mean that we ALL can have our say on the situation.
I will personally ensure there will be no personal attacks on anyone whilst we are there, that will lead nowhere if it is allowed to happen
I would like if we could all be man enough to leave any indifferences we have from before at home and use this opportunity to use this meeting as a chance to put things to the one side and try and move paramotoring forward within this island, there's no point in us getting together and bickering about the past, we will be agreeing on the future, I'm not saying we will all leave the field big mates, but we are all adult enough to work on this, after all this is OUR sport and one thing very clear from talking to everyone is that each and everyone of us are extremely passionate about this sport, now that's a real good starting point in my eyes, I am confident that this can move forward.

Now, the venue?
This is up for suggestions, we need field where we can do a bit of flying, weather permitting, but will need a back up option in case it is wet, somewhere we can all go and sit down and have this discussion, be it a school hall, a barn, a hotel.....this is where I need the ideas. If anyone knows of a venue can they please propose it on here.
Since the majority of pilots are based between Kildare and Cork, I suggest we have it somewhere suitable to these locations, I have spoken to Gordon and both he and I have no problem driving to Cork if need be, we will go wherever this will be held on the Saturday evening and hopefully get a flight and camp over and get a flight in the Sunday morning before this meeting, hopefully once we have our venue as many as possible will join us for a bit of craic- after all that's what this paramotoring is all about.

It would be good if this could happen this weekend coming, that's open for suggestions, but we need as many pilots from all areas to attend, this is very important.
There's only a few issues to discuss
1
the future of the sport and how we progress from here.
2
licencing and medicals, a proposal from all pilots to the IAA on how to make it easier to obtain these, going forward with a united voice
3
A brief piece on competition flying as there seems to be a misconception on how safe it is and is there a chance it may be putting a cloud over non competition pilots and perhaps if something happens during one of these tasks it could end up with a ban on the sport for everyone.

I have set up an email address donegalwing@eircom.net
and if anyone has any other topics to add please feel free to email me and I will put them on the agenda. Any issues sent to me will be treated in strictly confidential and will be put forward as issues with no names mentioned, that way , I feel, no one will take anything personal and it will allow non exemption pilots to have their say too, making it fair for everyone- which is what we want to achieve.

This topic is closed for discussion on this forum between now and the meeting, so it will be fair for everyone, any posts on this will be deleted, I would appreciate if ye would respect this request.

What I do need is any suggestions for a venue where to meet, everyone will have to travel so the location is not extremely important, but it needs to be somewhere we can fly.

Finally, I look forward to meeting up and putting a face to a name and apologize for the harsh decision to lock the thread but I hope you realise that, whilst it wasn't my place to do this, it was for the good of this sport and I am not suggesting that I am taking charge or looking for stripes, but as I am independent to all groups I feel I can have an open mind and allow everyone to have their say.

Please lets get a venue organised and then we can get this going, if I can get everyones email address I will email the venue off the public forum.
Thanks to all.

Dean

Well done for all the effort Dean!

I think a (flying) meeting is a very good plan, and will come back with a few suggested locations when I get back home on Tuesday. Getting together would be an achievement in itself, and any other progress would be a bonus!

Oisin