. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . earlier post by Dara.

Taken from the 'IHPA training syllabus' (there is a link to it from IHPAs site) . . . Yet another example of the fantasies of IHPA. Now it seems they License instructors and approve syllabi also.


Beddie Byes for me now . . . I'll be back for more

Guys

This constant bickering is leading nowhere, to be quite honest I am sick to the teeth of reading it, and before anyone says dont read it then, remember this forum was intended to be an open house of communication( which it certainly is at the moment) and somewhere to share stories, experiences, learn about the sport, the weather which effects us, share pictures capturing some of our best memories, somewhere to communicate our friendly fly-ins, a place to buy and sell equipment, a contact point for newbies to find local pilots, a place to generally promote the sport.

Take 10 minutes and go back to the start of this thread and read it all, whilst it is an open forum and everyone is entitled to their opinion, this sort of childish behaviour is ridiculous, and anyone I have spoken to arent interested in reading it, if ye want to keep this up then I suggest you take it elsewhere, how the hell would a newbie into the sport post here for the first time after reading all this verbal abuse which is being hurled around in here, sure they would see it as a lamb going to the slaughter, 'if I post there those guys will attack me'??? its not doing this forum any good!

There are some very good points raised here, some which I agree with and some which I disagree with, I 'got off the fence' briefly this time but feel that theres no point in getting involved in this with how ye are going about it at this time, I have no interest in any associations, BUT do have an interest in one thing- flying a paramotor, getting hung up on this and going down this route is going to lead to the administrators of this forum to step in and stop or delete this thread as its getting very abusive on a personal level and is deteoriating rapidly.


My personal view on this as a pilot, with over 60 paramotoring hours logged in my first year and a regular user of this forum, is that theres not a hope in hell in me joining any of these organisations as theres too much history here between members and they have other interests such as paragliding, hanggliding etc and wont have the best interests of me as a paramotor pilot at heart, my view on the BHPA is the same, I contacted their chairman recently about issues with Southern Irish pilots not being covered under their insurance policy and his response was more or less that there wasnt enough pilots here to make them even want to change it( if he was a paramotor pilot or a horse of the same colour he may have taken a different view on this and the reply would have been left more open ended).
As I have stated before I applaud what ye have done for your and this sport but why try and rule the roost, I havent achieved anything for this sport but have acheived some great memories and made some very good friends from this sport and indeed this forum so please dont ruin it for others .

I am not trying to keep fueling the fire here guys but just giving my view
Yours

Dean

Hi Dean,

I fully accept that what's happening is unsavoury. However, IHPA (and I) will not permit misinformation and blatantly malicious propaganda to remain unanswered on the public forum. The two posts before yours from Paddy Bullman are classic examples of that. On Paddy's part there may also be an element of misunderstanding and ignorance of how IHPA operates but I'm less inclined to feel that's the case!

IAA will not publish an FLPA syllabus - they will simply document a framework to which syllabi must comply. Any organisation wishing to train PPGs must produce its own syllabus and have it approved under IAA's AMC process (AMC = Acceptable Means of Compliance). So, yes, IHPA have a syllabus, and we're also going to revise it based on recent developments and we're going to work with NMAI on this too. However, no organisation has any intention or facility to impose their syllabus on anyone else. Paddy and anyone outside IHPA is not in any way affected or bound by any new IHPA syllabus that is approved by IAA. Paddy's own quote makes the point that IHPA instructors must use the IHPA syllabus. He's absolutely right and all that activity is within IHPA and has no effect on Paddy or any pilot outside IHPA. I also believe that no one else apart from Paddy believes that the IHPA PPG syllabus applies to anyone other than IHPA pilots! Paddy is trying to frighten non-aligned pilots that IHPA has plans for global domination when nothing could be further from the truth.

Paddy's other point in relation to insurance is also based on either ignorance or malice. For many years IHPA pilots had no insurance and I personally set up the cover with SportsCover Direct when I was IHPA Treasurer in, I think, 1999. This was a major break-through and the majority of IHPA pilots are still insured with SportsCover Direct. When I started flying under power I bought cover from Bartlett's until they withdrew and NMAI recommended OnRisk so I changed over to them. NMAI had met with the senior people from OnRisk and they had put in place their excellent package of polices for Irish pilots. So, I repeat for absolute clarity - within NACI, IHPA pioneered cover with SportsCover Direct and NMAI pioneered cover with OnRisk.

I'm not surprised that Paddy is unable to attribute his malicious allegations against IHPA to anyone other than an anonymous single newbie on some hill. What started out was Paddy's false allegation that lots of people being misled by IHPA and, in the same sentence, Paddy changes it to one person and a mock "plea" for that anonymous person to come forward. Just another figment of Paddy's wild imagination. I repeat my request to Paddy to either substantiate his nonsensical allegations against IHPA or withdraw them. I think we'll all be waiting.

Paddy's final suggestion that IHPA should consult with him and other PPGs outside IHPA before responding to IAA is laughable. Paddy's crazy twisted logic does throw me sometimes. On one hand Paddy castigates IHPA for representing non-IHPA pilots (which we don't) and in the next sentence we're meant to consult with him before we respond to the IAA's invitation for consultation! Please, give us a break! I fully understand that Paddy's mantra is "IHPA bad - Paddy good!" but for God's sake will someone stop Paddy getting so worked up and making himself look silly by arguing both for and against the same position??

IHPA is quite busy enough looking after its own members and we would never dare to step over that line of claiming to represent Paddy or others outside IHPA. Any representation agreements that we have are "within NACI" - a phrase that I have used many times. I repeat for absolute clarity - within NACI NMAI will represent wheeled microlights and IHPA will represent FLPA. Paddy is simply rabble-rousing and trying to agitate non-aligned PPGs against IHPA by suggesting otherwise.

Every action by IHPA for its members will be positive for our airsport and that's a positive side-effect - but that's all it is. Please also remember that IHPA has no aspirations to rule the Irish PPG scene - we're basically a free-flying organisation with a minority of powered members. I repeat our strategic decision that if a unified PPG association can be formed and affiliated to NACI then IHPA will stand back and will transfer our powered members into that new organisation. I have no aspirations to lead or participate in any new organisation other than as a member - just as I'm a member of NMAI. Now that doesn't sound like the megalomaniac, power-hungry organisation that Paddy would have you believe that we are - does it??

Cheers,

>>> Dara <<<

P.S. If Paddy wants to know what percentage of powered pilots are in IHPA he'll have to tell me the total number of PPGs in Ireland and we don't know that because we're all so fragmented.

####################################################################

E-Mail from: Dara Hogan E-Mail: dara.hogan@esatclear.ie
Chairman: Irish Hang Gliding & Paragliding Association
Director / Vice-President: National Aero Club of Ireland

Check out our websites at: www.ihpa.ie and www.aeroclub.ie
Check out my paragliding photos at: www.fotki.com/DaraHogan

6 Highfield Court, Marley Grange, Rathfarnham, Dublin 16, Ireland
Home Telephone: +353-1-493-5038 Mobile: +353-86-258-5978

####################################################################

Dean,
I agree with you that the constant bickering is sickening. But, it does happen repeatedly. Why one might ask? It popped up on an earlier forum and f/£%cked that up properly. It comes up again regularly on this forum.
I'm not sure I quite agree with your solution to 'ignore it'. Do you think if we just pretend there are no problems in the PPG community in Ireland, then it will be so? If we just ignore the issue and talk only about beautiful sunset flights on summer evenings, then it will all go away on its own. Indeed maybe the forum administration will ban the likes of me off the forum and 'abrakadabra'! Problem gone.

There is a lot wrong in this community (ppg) in Ireland. It was there long before you or I got on the scene. You were not the cause of it. I was not the cause of it, but neither will I ignore it and pretend it goes away on its own. I will defend my opinions when I voice them and then even when I have to listen to the bully tactics of megalomaniac describe my valid opinions as rantings and ravings, laughable etc, etc, I will reciprocate. Or maybe I should do what most people seem to be doing here on this forum and just bury my head in the sand.


Where is everybody else? Hallooooo!! Is there anybody out there . . . ?

Guys,



Please print this out and use it!

Why is there no 'governing body' in the UK?
-Paramotors fall directly under the juristiction of the CAA... What's wrong with this? Wys is Ireland different?

If we don't create another ... unneeded, unnecessary, useless committee.... we wont need to worry about who runs it... Instead we can all go flying.... Enjoy the relative 'deregulated state' while you can....

GD

Guys
Did you ever hear about the mountain and the molehill??
I have never said ignore it, but there is a civilised and diplomatic approach to these things, throwing the toys out of the pram and going on a wobbler isnt helping things, a sensible constructive approach would be much better than going on like this...
Dean

Guys
Did you ever hear about the mountain and the molehill??
I have never said ignore it, but there is a civilised and diplomatic approach to these things, throwing the toys out of the pram and going on a wobbler isnt helping things, a sensible constructive approach would be much better than going on like this...
Dean

Guys
Did you ever hear about the mountain and the molehill??
I have never said ignore it, but there is a civilised and diplomatic approach to these things, throwing the toys out of the pram and going on a wobbler isnt helping things, a sensible constructive approach would be much better than going on like this...
Dean

Hi Gordon,

In my view the UK has two National Governing Bodies (BMAA and BHPA) and both are well-supported by PPGs. Both BMAA and BHPA are members of RAeC - the UK national aero club affiliated to FAI in Switzerland. Ireland is similar with NMAI and IHPA both affiliated to NACI. BHPA is coming more to the fore now as BMAA withdrew their support for their FLPA schools last year. Indeed, you're a member of BHPA through UHPC (I think) and they're a fine organisation who have been very helpful to IHPA.

We mustn't confuse sports organisations with regulators. Our Dept of Transport is responsible for driver licensing and their regulator is the Road Safety Authority. Likewise, the Dept of Transport is responsible for pilot licensing and their regulator is the IAA. Apart from licensing drivers and pilots the Dept of Transport has no role in motorsports or in airsports. That's left to Motorsports Ireland and the National Aero Club of Ireland - both of which are affiliated to their international sports federations.

I sincerely believe that PPGs do need to organise into a national association and to affiliate to NACI in order to negotiate with the IAA as a unified body and to promote and develop our sport. That's why NACI and IHPA have made a number of attempts to get PPGs to come together. In my view paramotoring will never achieve its full potential unless pilots do come together. Competition is also important and Irish pilots won't be able to represent their country at official competitions abroad without obtaining FAI Sporting Licences from NACI. That's another good reason for coming together.

Regards,

>>> Dara <<<

Yes of course! The voice of reason contra the ranting rabble rouser!
Yes of course a civil diplomatic approach is the solution, thanks for the advice Dean, You might already have the solution for the unity of PPG Pilots in Ireland. If so, would you share it with us? I'll volunteer my time . . I'll be on it straight away.
In other words Dean. In my opinion, we need more constructive action that obscure advice from the sidelines.

I'll make a start on my next post..........

Hit the nail on the head here Gordon in my opinion, we don't need any more of what we have here in Eire already. Also, and in my humble opinion, it is not so much a question of us Irish PPGs enjoying the relative deregulated state for as long as we can (we are doing that) , , , , but more of the question 'Will we have any say in the developement of our sport?' Or 'will we allow that to be looked after for us by others?'

Fine weather, attitude, altitude and airspeed + a current IAA exemption.....what else matters........................................?

Right! Now we're making headway. I agree that PPG Pilots do need some form of association to represent them. But, on their terms! I am hardly alone with that opinion. Am I?


Let's be frank . . . NACI and IHPA's attempts to bring Irish pilots together has so far been on their (IHPA & NACI) terms. Both of these organisations are of course adament that their failure to do so has nothing to do with them. Wake up and smell the coffee! would ya?


As I see it, what this in effect is telling me is that if I want to have representation in my sport I have to have it on FAI's and NACI's terms. The sentiment here seems to be "You can't represent your sport unless you do it on our terms". You can guess what my answer to that is . . .


Nonetheless! We are making headway here. Within the last 24 hours I have discovered that there is at least one and possibly more points that I agree with IHPA on. We have it from the horses mouth! The IHPA
Does NOT represent the PPG Pilots of Ireland?


Neither are they a National Governing Body as we exposed on an earlier forum.

There are also a few blatantly obvious facts: Both IHPA and NACI (& possibly some other organisations) are adamantly interested in recruiting Irish PPG Pilots to their ranks. But, unfortunately, on their terms!

Most PPG Pilots have absolutely NO INTEREST in these organisations. The proof is in the pudding, if these organisations were what they claim to be, then they would have more ppg pilots in their ranks! Would they not?

I am a ppg pilot and I want representation of my sport on my terms! That is my right and I will stand up for it. I will have it on my terms and I will not bury my head in the sand and let the likes of D Hogan and his cronies dictate otherwise . . .

I want a representative organisation for me as a ppg, I want it on the terms dictated by the PPG Pilots themselves and I want it free of the doctrines of IHPA and/or any other organisation or individual intent on its own glory. Anybody got anything against that?

I am now going to start work on just that, without or without the help of the advisors on the fence. and if again it fails .. at least I'll have tried. If anyone would like to help, or think they have a better solution, then knock yerselves out.

In other words make a choice: You have your say! . . . Or stay behind the fence and let someone else do it for ya!

Paddy . . .

p.s. Let's talk again soon . . . . .

Hi All,

It is really sad, the way this topic is going. I personally am not too bothered who represents me as long as they are doing the right thing. I know Dara does have IHPA members at heart,me being a member for the last 9 years. He at least, is not keeping it to himself and is very open and honest about IHPA discussions with the IAA. Furthermore he would like to see PPG as unregulated as possible. The IAA have every reason to come down hard on every kind of aviation known in this country because if no regulation is in place every form of pilot would be running a muck, so as to speak. I think the biggest problem the IAA see is the liability side. They don’t want any hassle from JOE PUBLIC, so they ask those who have some credibility/experience/knowledge, to come to the table and make sure they (IAA) are laying down the RIGHT law and not the WRONG one. I cant see what is wrong with that.
I am a pilot on the ground and love doing what I do, here is something I am putting up as a reminder why I fly. If you look at the video and photos, you can really see the TEAM SPIRIT in it all. (sorry it had to be Dudek)

http://dudek.eu/eng/dudek.php?go=kadra_2008

Sadly i think we are missing alot of this here by some.

Jason.

I have been watching the discussion with interest.

I am not as upset as some by the discussion, as I believe we do need to have this debate.

Like the moderates here, I am not certain what the answer is, but the current situation is not at all acceptable in my mind. This is why I started the tread with the question “ does anyone care to share the agenda with us?”

Why is there a meeting supposedly about the future of Paramotoring in Ireland, and the majority of pilots have not even been informed? Clearly those attending the meetings have given the IAA the impression that they represent all the pilots in Ireland. This is my most significant problem with the matter.

Why were pilots not informed? Like many other pilots, I have no interest in the politics or history between the groups, and would rather not know anything of the past glorious history of the sport in Ireland. I have heard much of the reason behind the difficulties, and clearly understand why we are where we are now. It is only two years since I was advised by some not to apply for an exemption, or to communicate with the IAA, as I was in some way letting down the side, by ‘giving in’ to their unreasonable demands!

Rather than judge anyone, and dig this all up again, I think a fresh start is in order. I don’t think anyone would disagree that we cannot be happy with the current situation. I have always called for discussions about the future of the sport being inclusive and open to all pilots. I also made the point in earlier postings that the majority of pilots are not represented by the IHPA, the NMAI, or the IPPHA. This leaves the majority of pilots, most of whom are not in the above associations for the same reasons ( not seeing the benefit, or not wanting to be part of the divisiveness, seen as part and parcel of ‘taking sides’ by aligning oneself with any of the above) as myself, being left without a voice. What I do not want to see, is a new set of rules being negotiated secretly by a few, emerging from the IAA without any consultation with the majority? Not unreasonable I would have thought?

Maybe there is a hybrid based on what Gordon and Dean have suggested, which would start us on the right road. ‘Team spirit’ as Jason suggests. Perhaps a public meeting to review the issues would lead to the possibility of a ‘representative group’ being established. This group could consult extensively, and publicly, with pilots and ensure that representations made to the IAA and others were all inclusive and truly representative. This group would allow paramotoring in Ireland, North and South to speak with one united voice, ( might be a tall order!) which would assist in discussions with the IAA, and insurance companies etc. This group could in time form the basis of a ‘newfed’ which it seems most are open to discussing as a possibility. A ‘newfed’ may not be inevitable, but could be on the agenda.
Leave the IAA approve whatever syllabus is acceptable to them, as they do now, and whoever wishes to put one forward can continue to do so.

I see no problem with this interim proposal, and feel it should not initially be confused by discussions about the relationship with NACI, of FAI, or the need to consult IHPA for international permits to fly. This is second to getting together to speak as one voice!
I also think it might work if, as mentioned in the treads before, it is not seen as an initiative of any one of the organizations, or involved in any way with NACI. The issue of NACI relationship can follow once the relationship is better understood by all.

The agenda for a meeting can be put together on the forum?

The memo’s of meetings can also be posted on this forum, or through club forums perhaps? Open and transparent.

One last thought. Lets do it with a fly-in? Fly first and chat later, just in case we forget why we are even interested in this debate!!

Oisin

In light of above, and the continued debate in UK about BMAA, BHPA, Paramotor Club UK..etc.... It is worth noting the recent ( April 2009) view of the UK AAIB, in their report on the 2007 paramotor fatality ( Kevin) in UK:

It is a recommendation that there should be one single organisation for paramotoring in the UK.


ACCIDENT TO PARAMANIA REVOLUTION 23, AT MIDDLE BARN FARM BEXHILL ON 8 JULY 2007

CAA FACTOR NUMBER : F2/2009

FACTOR PUBLICATION DATE : 09 April 2009

OPERATOR : Private
CAA OCCURRENCE NUMBER : 2007/06288
AAIB REPORT : 2/2009
SYNOPSIS
From AAIB Report:

The paramotor was being operated by an experienced pilot who was also an instructor. He was seen to initiate
what was described as a 'wingover' manoeuvre to the right, at about 1,000ft, but this was seen to develop into a
rapid spiral to the left which continued for several turns, with a high rate of descent. The aircraft started to recover
at a late stage but the pilot received fatal injuries in the impact with the ground.
There was no defect identified within the wing (canopy and rigging) but structural failures were identified within the
paramotor unit, consistent with having occurred in flight and precipitating the spiral descent.

FOLLOW UP ACTION

The one Safety Recommendation made by the AAIB following their investigation is reproduced below together with
the CAA's response.

Recommendation 2008-052

It is recommended that the Civil Aviation Authority should actively develop oversight of the sport of self-propelled
hang gliders, including paramotors, by a single organisation.

Paddy,
If you would give me a chance, that other thread wasnt intended to be sarcastic or otherwise, just thought it would calm the situation and buy a bit of time to talk with others.
Jason, Oisin and all
There are clearly issues here, which are being blown out of proportion here a bit, but we have issues.
This is how I see it.
We have three groups haveing meetings with the IAA about us, pilots, and as Oisin pointed out none of us pilots knew anything about this, it would be better to hear about this meeting first and express any views/concerns (if any) before the meeting....now this has happened so theres no point in dwelling on the past, BUT what we can do is concentrate on the future, the future of this sport, Lets not forget the fact that both parties involved here have put a lot of hard work and effort into taking this sport as far as they have which is brilliant, but as this sport is growing fast and its clearly not going down the route it should, there needs to be a few things addressed as to how EVERYONE sees fit, we wont all come together and agree on everything- there would be no craic in the world if everyone agrees!!
We do need to try and pull together on this, as far as I see it theres two ways we can do this, we can use all the resources we have and try and put differences aside , as Oisin has said, and work on a strategy to move forward and have a sport which has a voice for EVERYONE involved, but only one voice, now this can be done by having members of both parties involved in this , which I would like to see, and indeed Dara has already said that they are willing to do that, I would like to see this done with Gerry and his crew involved, after folks, those groups have done more than we may ever do.
The second option is take the bull by the horns and form another organisation which is operated by pilots, peopls who fly everyday, people with only paramotoring at heart, not paragliding, not hang gliding, not microlighting......I would like to see the first option work as I too am not interested in the politics but would like to see the sport progress in a safe and fair way for ALL involved in it, and indeed I would like to think any views/ideas that I or any other pilot would have could be discssed and considered, I not talking about having meetings every month....keep it simple but give everyone a chance to air their views on how this sport can stay as deregulated as possible and simple as possible and we can all fly!!!
I would like to hear if Gerry and Dara would be interested in seeing if theres any way we can maybe all get togther in a civilased manner and just have a chat about this, I'm not interested in hearing a long winded story of what has happened or any of that craic, just are ye genuinely interested in getting together for the good of this sport and the good of all us pilots, if we can do this then maybe we can involve all, not just this forum, and get their input.
Whilst I would like to say more , I am also involved in trying to keep my business afloat at the moment, raise a wee baby, and FLY.....look at the weather we are having and I am here at the keyboard when I should be having a wee fix before work.....
I am away for the rest of the day and evening, and would like to see something positive next time I log on....
Dean
P.S.
I am in a mad rush so havent had time to read over this so hope ye take the correct meaning from what I have written.....